Holiness and the Myth of Gay Marriage.

Let look at two things.

Number one – Democracy is not Gods best.

There are scriptural blue prints for democracy. But, the trinity isn’t a democracy. Its holy. It is perfectly relational. Do I tongue in cheek think that the three members of the trinity discuss and disagree on certain designs? Maybe. That would rule.

Democracy is a stunted version of what God envisioned for government. A very stunted version. And although most of the conservative right wing of the western world has convinced themselves and the rest of humanity that capitalism is Gods best, that is also a fallacy. Capitalism works in a supply and demand language, collecting as much as one can. Gods kingdom works on a giving and receiving mentality. Balance and generosity. Not consumptive excess.

So when one argues that God wants us to uprise and call on our governments to outlaw gay marriage, it makes me laugh. Because it makes Jesus look bad. When we call on our governments to give more in international aid, it makes me die a little inside, as we facebook our friends sitting next to us, buy our retardedly expensive cars that drive on a fuel that will cease to exist in 40 years and think ‘i have no money to help’.

Christ attacked

– The spiritual elite – the hypocrites.
– The pagans that got in the way of the gentiles having access to God in the courts.
– and Peter.
– aaaaaand technically Satan by destroying the enemies power at the cross.

Why do we think we should attack others when Jesus called for no rocks to be thrown, no judgements to be made, and no stumbling blocks put in their way.

Where would one find a bigger stumbling block than presenting a Jesus that hates people and protests friendship even going as far as picketing funerals with signs that speak of God hating fags. Does God really hate fags?

Back to the point. Taking Australia for example, through wise choices and intelligent living we could each afford to personally send financial support to the developing world, making sure everyone can eat. Aid money accounted for. If the body of Christ created loving and servant-hearted community, we would exemplify the freedom of Gods love, as opposed to carbon copying the world in our day to day lives and saving Jesus for the church service. We are a tribal people of significant influence over life and love. We need not mere nation state puppet governments, who can neither legislate morality or stop love from changing the world.

Point 2
If Jesus was invited to a gay wedding, would he go?

As he walks in he begins to teach people how to live abundantly. He dances hard, he drinks wisely, he has crazy conversations, he’s honest and real and affirms people deeply. he becomes the king of the party because he is the best partyer. and people are drawn to his freedom-from-fear-of man. He walks out of that wedding with more people following him then if he had stayed at home angry that gay people get to marry.

Secondly, if God calls us to not judge people outside of the ‘church’ could it be because he wants us soft hearted so that the holy spirit can move?

If we are elitist or judgmental – we toe the line of broken-relationship or ‘sin’. Let God do what he does best – healing the broken and freeing the captive. He’s much better at it then our sinful hearts, hands and feet.

The last few days i’ve heard scripture quoted as the reason we should out law ‘the gays’ as if a law would stop people falling in love. Does the fact that divorces happen stop you from being in a committed loving marriage? Does the law that permits tobacco being sold to people mean you have to be addicted to it or smoke at all? The law means crud-all when you are a free man. The law is for the guilty.

If pedophilia wasn’t against the law does that mean we let people abuse our kids? FRAG NO.

And no i am not making a correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia. They are two completely different things. Pedophilia just seems to be the universal moral absolute. #pointmade

Lastly, to those who are already formulating comments to do with ‘But God says homosexuality is wrong, we must stamp it out’ God’s perfection speaks of everything less than holiness is wrong. We were designed for relational perfection. Pointing fingers is an echo from the garden of Eden when Adam first felt uncomfortable being naked around Gods holiness. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil means we compare, judge, become prideful and faux humble.

God wants YOU, reader, to be able to love uncomfortably, and unceasingly.

Can you?



31 thoughts on “Holiness and the Myth of Gay Marriage.

  1. Very well said. I struggle with this issue all the time, but 2 things I do know. 1) The greatest commanment was to love God and then others as yourself and that is what we must do. Put all others first. 2) God is the judge and I am not so I must not presume to know that which I don’t. I guess I will still struggle with this, but I have decided to I must love everyone equally and as much as possible for that is what God has asked me to do.

    1. but then theres the balance of Gods holiness, and does love mean pushing people into things some believe is better for them. and is the process irrelevant if the end is better?

  2. You make a lot of good points here. It should be considered, however, that what you see as a response is a caricature (both ways) of the real way people feel about it, in order to manipulate the conversation and demonize opposing view points. For my part, quite a lot of people I know don’t care one way or another about whether the government allows tax incentives or recognizes gay unions as marriage. However, that is usually not how it is presented when it comes to vote. For example, when I was in Florida, the way the vote was presented is on an item that said “Is marriage defined as a man and a woman”. The answer from me, mechanically, is yes, because i believe a) God created marriage – it’s his thing and b) that is how he defined it (with himself included) himself in Genesis when he invented it. It’s like coming up to me with two pieces of bread that have mayo and ham in the middle of it and asking me if that is a ham sandwich. Yes, that is a ham sandwich, by definition. If someone wants to have a turkey sandwich and call it a ham sandwich – ok – they can do so, it’s a free country. If someone wants a turkey sandwich at the price of a ham sandwich – ok – i could live with that with few caveats. But that’s still a turkey sandwich, not a ham sandwich. I am not hating those who want to call turkey sandwiches ham sandwich by just stating what I believe to be true.

    The issue in a lot of this that is not presented is not whether people would be ok with the government allowing this. It’s that the argument is being taken a step further (by some, not all) and saying “You have to consider this turkey sandwich a ham sandwich or you are morally wrong, a hate monger, a turkeyaphobe, an intellectual moron, and are a horrible person.” In the case of Florida, I had to go to work everyday and hear people bash the ignorant hate filled fools as homophobes and hatemongers who voted “yes” on the item above, when all along, I was just affirming what I believe the definition was, not whether people who are gay who enter into these covenants could or could not do so and whether that could be tax subsidized. What’s holding this issue up, I believe, is not that citizens would stop benefits and such to these unions but that people are trying to force others to agree that two people of the same gender entering a covenant before the Lord is the same thing as two people of the opposite gender doing the same. If an item came up to vote that were to allow tax breaks to same sex unions who make covenants with each other, i am almost certain that it would pass through a lot of states. And then, the people involved could call themselves married or whatever and, fine, you know, whatever. But that isn’t how this is or has been pursued. There is almost a militant desire to get people to physically say it’s ok, that living a homosexual lifestyle is not morally wrong. the homosexual covenants are marriage, and then put it in writing. Asking me to let people have something they want even though I think it is wrong is much different that asking me to affirm that they are morally ok when they do something sinful. Furthermore, it is not love to just say “That’s ok” when it’s not. Homosexuality is exactly the same as other types of misuse of sex or covenants – it hurts you, it hurts God, and it hurts other people. We certainly don’t act like it’s the same as other things we turn a blind eye towards, which should be considered very very deeply, but it still doesn’t make it right to put a big fat “ok” stamped on what is wrong just because your track record sucks. (And, for the record, we allow tobacco use even to those addicted but the law isn’t a statement of justification for the morality of it).

    I believe what you said that Jesus would go to a gay wedding. I believe what you said after for some part of it. But you left out the part where Jesus stands up in the middle of the wedding and calls for repentance of unGodly things and following untruths which harm us following it with a call to enter the kingdom of God, which in turn leads him to be thrown out and crucified. It wasn’t just supposedly faithful people who crucified him, the crowd ultimately had the choice and they shouted crucify alongside the others.

    Perhaps a law item will come up with wording like “Homosexual men and women will now be allowed to enter into a covenant which they define as marriage and those doing so will be allowed the same benefits as those who enter into heterosexual marriage as it is already understood – Yes or No.” If that happens, and I felt I should vote, then maybe I would vote Yes after considering it prayerfully. Most of these days, I don’t vote at all. I’m a bit of a political agnostic. The funny thing is, if i didn’t vote, then people would be calling me a hatemonger and a hater of Jesus for not championing people who were downtrodden. Such is life, i suppose.

    Those outside of the U.S., heck, those in the U.S.!, need to consider that they aren’t seeing the full story – both ways – and may have been manipulated by selective information that is passed on to them. The guy willing to walk around with the “God hates fags” poster is maybe 1000 individual dudes a nation of 250 million. Perhaps, in bulk, people don’t think here what others think they think. Perhaps, this is something to consider, perhaps people are ratcheting up anger purposefully to keep people from listening to each other, trying to use the image of a guy with a “God hates fags” poster to make you think of everyone opposed as that guy. In any case, the crux of the issue is certainly not what it is being portrayed to be and now we have a situation where no one is listening and everyone is throwing rhetoric around. I somehow think that if you got a listening Christian and a listening homosexual into the same room that it would be a much calmer affair.

    1. i re-read this, and on top of the things I’ve been reading and thinking of – i like this a lot. Christ would defs get up at the wedding speak of the freedom his death brought. It would be about a rescue, an entrance to the kingdom that doesn’t take any effort or shame – but the opposite. Also your picture of the ham sandwich was rad because 1) you used ham and two thats exactly what Australia faces. The change of definitions.

      1. I like ham. We should have a ham sandwich together and maybe troll around Canberra. You’re dad could give me the political tour again. We could get Peter to hitchhike up and drink coffee with us. We could watch a movie that Lydia hadn’t seen and I could ruin the ending for her and then she could hate me forever. How good would that be?

  3. Yeah, great article Jez, one of the best I’ve heard about this. And I also like what Todd is saying.

    I think the ground that I have come to is this. We call sin sin, but if it ever stops us from treating people the way Jesus would, then we have an issue.
    If I cannot look a homosexual person in the eye and love them the same as anyone else I am in sin. I will still say to them that this is sin, but it is not the end of the world.

    It does become more tricky when they are a ‘Christian’ as well. The words of Paul about epelling the immoral brother come to mind. But at the same time, how many more have sin? How many more men are hiding thier lustful thoguhts and deeds that we do not know about, should they to be expelled?

    It is far to complicated to work out a ‘nice solution’ to figure it all out and draw lines and say this is ok, this is not, this is right this isn’t.

    So we come back to doing the only thing that we can, which is what you are saying, and simply show these guys what we have. And if we cannot show them that what we have is better than any broken idea of relationship they hold, then we have failed. Because I know that what I have with Christ is bettter than the world. Too often we are trying to show these guys the way out and lead them into what? More divorces, more lust, more insecurity? How different is the CHruch than those outside? The divorce rates are very nearly the same. The levels of pornography addiction are the same. When this changes. Then they will change, because they see the better.

    1. Do you mean “the Church” or “the churches?” I think there is a HUGE difference, though the world doesn’t see it, now it, or understand it. If churches were behaving like the Church, the numbers would be different, and our reputation would be true.

      Off topic. Maybe.

      1. (Not sure if this is replying to myself or to you, sirrah… sorreh. BTW, “now” = “know,” and I can usually spell.)

        “The Church” is the bride, the body of Christ: those who have accepted him as Lord of their earthly existence and Savior of their spiritual lives. “The churches” are buildings where people meet; at best they are groups of fallible humans who may or may not be the penitent, loving children of God, some of whom are described as wolves in she eps clothing, others who are just following rules to make themselves feel good in some way. Like geometry: not all rhombuses and rectangles, and not all rectangles are squares.

        There is not way to tell if the divorcing, porning, you-name-it-ing “Christians” have actually met Christ, ever. But to the world, to whom religion represents God, there is no difference.

      2. Fruit would ABSOLUTELY be a way to tell. Are porn addiction, adultery, and divorce considered fruit? If they are present can other fruit grow? If they are present is the vine viable, i.e.. grafted to The Vine, which is Jesus? Questions I try not to answer for other people, because I am so busy inspecting my own fruit. I believe the leadership of the churches is called to maintain the Church’s membership by exercising church discipline.

  4. I need to make more friends with people who don’t know Jesus. Wait, maybe I need to make friends with people who don’t know Jesus full stop.
    Gracias JBR.

  5. I want to only address the issue of the church who carries the signs that says God hates fags. This supposedly Baptist church has a preacher who is related to every member of the 80 people who ‘belong’ to the church. T he sad thing is these people get more press than any church doing God’s will. Every time they picket a funeral they get press all over the world. They are accomplishing what they set out to do. Nothing is said of the millions of people here in this country who live by God’s word, who bring the gospel to the lost. Why? Because that is not newsworthy but this group of hatemongers is newsworthy. What these so called church members are doing is legal in the U.S. Why do other countries point to this small group of hatemongers and chide the U.S, for their action? Every time it is mentioned or they are mentioned they again accomplish what they set out to do. Think about it 80 people against almost 300 million people or if you choose only Church of Christ members around 2 million. Todd covered everything I would have said about same sex marriage.

  6. As a former Christian I think I have a unique perspective on this issue. For many Christians marriage is a holy thing so letting gay people get married is obviously quite a confronting prospect. However, many things in the law contradict Christianity including issues regarding sexuality. 40 years ago it was illegal to be caught in homosexual acts but I doubt very much that you would find many Christians (except on the radical fringe) who would like to see a return to this type of law. You have to also keep in mind that marriage is not solely a Christian concept, it is part of Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, secular society etc. and they did not inherit the concept from Christianity.

    Science and psychology seem to point that homosexuality isn’t a defect or problem or sin and to many people the fact that Christians still say that it is is almost like a collective of people with their fingers in their ears chanting “La la la we’re not listening. God says it’s wrong so it’s wrong la la la.”

    I think as part of the community the Christian voice has to be heard and has to count for something. Christians should, however, take a step back and see that they are a part of the larger community and that their’s is not the final say and that sometimes the majority of people are going to disagree with what they think is right. Living in a democracy means that sometimes laws are going to be passed that some people, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Liberal, Labour or Green, are not going to agree with.

    I’m not trying to be confrontational or “troll” I am trying to give you guys the other side of the argument. But I really respect how you guys speak of loving people, I think that’s what I like most about Jesus even as a non-christian.

      1. I have never heard of this. I did a quick google search and didn’t find anything about it either.

      2. forgotten where the research i got shown was, but – Atrazine i think its called. or one like it. changes a whole bunch of stuff it shouldn.t

  7. loved the blog, loved reading all of the comments. thanks to you all for the challenging and encouraging perspectives

  8. Todd basically said everything I think. I can’t elaborate (nor is there much point!) anymore. I can only wish I was able to express my thoughts and feelings as clearly!

  9. Todd I understand what you say and where you are coming from but you have missed the point. The point of Christians being opposed to homosexuality is not one of being unloving, or of making Jesus look bad. It is a matter or holiness and habitual sin. The bible is quite clear that those in habitual sin will not inherit the kingdom of God, and if we cheapen the plain and clear truth of the scripture, you make one step down a slippery slope of moral greyness and muddy confusion.

    God is holy I completely agree. He cannot stand sin. It is utterly repulsive to him. God has no part in homosexuality, or homosexual marriage. This may cause you to balk, but it is straight out of the bible.

    You speak of Jesus going to a gay wedding like he were not there already. He sees them and weeps. He loves gays as much as you and I but there is no salvation for those who do not repent (turn) from sinfulness, and that breaks God’s heart.

    God IS loving. His love is shown to us through Jesus Christ dying to free us from our complete and utter bondage to sin. We are bought out of slavery to sin, and into relationship with God. But if we aren’t? Romans 1 says before we knew God we were completely depraved. It even talks of how if we refuse to believe the truth of God’s existence and put our opinions in place of Gods, he will give us over to depraved minds. The result? Natural relation exchanged for unnatural relations.

    We must love gays. There is no argument there. If you think I am railing on homosexuals you have got me wrong. We need to share that they can have that relationship with a man (if they are a man) that is deeply intimate. But that can only be found in Jesus Christ. Same for women. If your friend was an alcoholic, would you confront him and attempt to help him recover, accept him and let him continue but rest assured, you feel ‘loving’ or would you condemn him for his self-destruction? I would hope the first one. God is Truth and Love.

    Love is not acceptance. It is unconditional and the difference is as night to day.

    Please don’t go down the road of questioning the bible and its relevance and authority because in doing that you question the character and nature of God. The reason why Christians are opposed to gay marriage is because they take scripture as authoritative i.e. It is the word of God.

    We must be kind, compassionate, merciful and loving but we must also be truthful, bold, resolute and holy because God is all those things to us. When we see him as he is, we see others as he does.

    God bless you, I see you love others and want to bring them into relationship with him. Let yourself be guided by his word and strengthened in love by his Holy Spirit.

    Jake A

    1. Jake,
      I believe you are addressing Jeremy (“donteattrash”) with this, not my reply? (Although my reply was rather ridiculously long so I could see how you could make the mistake) I’ll be happy to respond if you meant to address me though.

      1. you say – “If your friend was an alcoholic, would you confront him and attempt to help him recover” confront is a very aggressive word, i have definitely wisely counseled people with alcohol problems by coming alongside them and sharing my own struggle with addiction and testifying about the freedom i have found in God. i have defs presented the gospel clearly and well and timely and seen it responded to. But i’m wondering what your picture is of ‘confronting’ .

        And in the context of gay marriage would you walk up to the wedding couple and be like ‘God says this is wrong and its bad for you, you should probably not do it because you will burn in hell’

        Or would it look more like a coming alongside and talking about the cross and the good news being a freedom from ALL sin ALL relational incompleteness. Would you then hear from the holy spirit to pray for healing in one of their backs because he has a twinge in it. and then would see healing, see God arrest both their hearts, and then pray a whole other bunch of stuff to see liberation?

        Which confronting do you mean. The confronting that comes from the holy spirit using us to change everything? Or the confronting of mans impatience?

        God is SO holy. He wants to bring revival to the earth. He wants us involved. So badly. He wants our feet on the street, our arms around people.

        Are you ready?

  10. I believe that God is holy and I believe that the Bible is without fault. My problem is deciding whose interpretation is correct. If I struggle with sexual temptation is that habitual sin? If I buy an IPad and eat out at a fancy Restaurant while others die of starvation is my life style habitual sin? If I only give a 9.5 % tithe – is that robbing God and enough to strike me dead? Everytime I get angry or worry about something – am I not disobeying God and isn’t that a sin?

    None of us live perfect lives and because we are all works in progress we all struggle with sin and I believe that we somehow convince ourselves that what we are doing (or not doing) is ok when it probably isn’t. This continues until at some point the Holy Spirit gets our attention and we decide to change. So I guess in some form or fashion we are all living in habitual sin.

    Some people can walk the walk and talk the talk, but only God know the state of a man’s heart. God’s word does tell us that if a person truly wants to find God, then he will. As I said earlier, I struggle with this not because I don’t believe the Word of God – it is just that sometimes I don’t know if I am looking at a Ham or Turkey sandwhich. (Reference not used to poke fun at you Todd)

    So I will do what God commanded me to do – love him with my whole being and love others as myself.

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